Inbound Sales Mastery with Wes Schaeffer

Wes Schaeffer is The Sales Whisperer®. He possesses a unique ability to articulate messages you struggle to convey. He is driven by the belief that business owners and entrepreneurs deserve the precise tools and programs necessary for growth, without resorting to pushy or sleazy tactics. He believes in the value of time, rejecting low-quality solutions and quick fixes, and fostering deep human connections.

Beyond his professional accomplishments, Wes is a dedicated family man, living in Southern California with his wife since 2004, where they have raised seven children and are blessed with four grandchildren. He is an Air Force veteran, having graduated from USAFA in 199. He recently received his black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and is in his fourth year as the president of his HOA…so mow your lawn!

His journey to becoming The Sales Whisperer® was born out of personal dissatisfaction. Despite a successful career earning over $100,000 annually from 1998 to 2006, he found himself unhappy with the lack of vision from his bosses and a constant cycle of “smile and dial.” After being laid off for the second time, despite being over quota, with a family to support, he decided to take action and now dedicates his life to helping others achieve similar breakthroughs.

Today, as an obsessively pragmatic mentor and founder of The Sales Whisperer®, Wes makes selling predictable. He has a proven track record, assisting over 2,400 professionals in achieving nearly miraculous growth through his repeatable processes, honed since entering the world of commission sales in 1997. His expertise, blending Southern common sense with military discipline, has led to millions in sales for clients like Google and Dell, and a substantial monthly residual income from being the top reseller of leading sales and marketing automation software for small businesses. He is also a prolific writer with two books in print, a third set for release, a daily blog, The Sales Podcast now in its 13th season, and The Weekly Whisper.

Wes Schaeffer Episode Transcript

 Pain is a universal truth, so if you’re in pain, you’re going to address the pain or it’ll kill you. I remind people that it’s easier to sell an aspirin than a vitamin. Because if you don’t charge enough, you can’t deliver the service that your customers need, want and expect. We must deliver a powerful message in a powerful manner.

We don’t want to convince a hundred people 10% of the way. I wanna convince 10 people because a hundred percent of the way. When you know you’ve got your bills covered, whether you get outta bed or not, it’s empowering. And my dad always says, if you think you’re desperate, you are. So if you’re running around anxious and desperate, it compounds in a negative downward spiral.

Success begets success as those winds start to compound. Imagine as a business owner hitting the wall, not just once, but multiple times. Feeling that familiar dread of stagnation, where more effort. Just didn’t translate into more growth. What if despite those recurring plateaus, you broke free and built a business that delivered nearly miraculous growth and a consistent, predictable income that provides true freedom?

Welcome to today’s episode of Your Business Growth podcast. I’m your host Jeremy Shapiro, and my guest today is none other than the sales whisperer Wes Schafer. Before West pivoted, he was stuck with expenses, outpacing revenue, and he found himself on the hamster wheel of constantly struggling to find new customers to support himself and his growing family, hustling harder, just wasn’t working anymore, impacting everything from daily operations to his personal life.

But he found a way through. Today we’re gonna dive into the powerful shifts that West made, that completely transformed his business and led him not just a more profit. But far more predictable cash flow and freedom. Let’s dive in and discover how he moved beyond the hustle and built a truly abundant growth machine.

Wes, welcome to the show. That makes a little tear to my eye, man. I’m ready to listen to this episode. Me too. So Wes, bring us back to the beginning. You know, uh, you’ve had such a great arc. You know, we’ve known each other a long time, but you’ve been through, I think. Such an interesting journey as, uh, as an entrepreneur.

Bring us back to where that entrepreneurial bug first bit, you got into this whole great world of business. Man, man, man. You know, it started in college, man. I was at the Air Force Academy, which is a weird place to become an entrepreneur. But, uh, I was interested in investing, I was interested in the finance and whatnot and, you know, I wasn’t studying that, but I.

Growing up, like my parents had money, then they didn’t have money. And so when you, when you do without something you previously had, then you tend to want that again. And um, so I was at the academy, I went there, I was recruited to play football and you know, I went because it was quote unquote free. You know, they just take a pound of flesh, but I didn’t have to pay him any cash money.

Uh, so I began researching that, uh, looking into, you know, back then it’s like you didn’t, there was really no internet. Um, you know, you buy a subscription to Fortune Magazine, you know, and just wait each month and read it. Um, and then I went to Texas a and m afterwards with a bunch of other other guys, and one of them was quite savvy in investing.

We would go to the library, we’d go to Texas a and m library and buy, not buy, but I get these reference books off the shelves and we were pulling up stock charts and uh, made my first, uh, investment in stock, you know, and we made a few trades. I think everyone hits. I don’t think we’d lost anything. We didn’t get rich, but, you know, made a little money like, oh man, this stuff works.

And so that kind of gave me the bug, you know, still I owed five years from the academy, so. Just began laying the groundwork and, and you know, I knew I made plans to get out right in my five years and jump right into commission sales. And, um, that was 1997 when I got out. And then, you know, lots of ups and downs from there.

But that’s, that’s how this began. So walk us through some of the earlier businesses that, you know, you went from, uh, you know, stock, you know, working with stocks on the investment side to. Working as a sales rep, but you know, at some point you decided to hang your own shingle and go out on your own. What was that, what were those earlier businesses that really got you on this path?

Yeah. My first business, uh, I was a stockbroker and after six months ended up in a three year arbitration with them that I eventually won, but I was unemployed when my second, uh, kid was born. ’cause of that, uh, wonderful joy I became, uh, a mobile home salesman. Uh, became, got in the top 2% of this company, 2200 salespeople nationwide, was given a store and then they went bankrupt.

So we’re living six miles from six hours from family with two kids, two and under, and a third on the way. Uh, we moved to Austin. Um, then I got into high tech. Literally as the.com bubble burst. So like June of 2000, I got into high tech, um, and did okay. I made pretty good money, but it was a grind, uh, constant layoffs and reorganizations.

Um, so I was in a couple of tech firms until 2007 that brought us out here to California. But um, yeah, 2006, you know, I was always still trying to grow. I invested in, in a course. It was a 12 week teleclass back then. I, I bought it in oh five. It started in early oh six and it changed my life. Um, there was no social media, there was no video, there was no, you know, Facebook groups or school or anything like that.

It was a PDF and a weekly call. Uh, and it changed my life. That what was that course about? Just about sales and, um, it, it gave me. A framework. Until then, I was, you know, people say our, are our salespeople born? Are they made? And the truth is both. Um, I was born to be in sales, um, but I was also just stubborn.

Right. And determine. And I had a family to provide force. Like I had to figure it out. So I was making decent money as a salesman and uh, you know, I made at least a hundred grand since 98, 99, but I was still was like, man, there’s gotta be something else. Gotta be something easier, something a better way of doing this.

And, and Steve gave me this framework and, and I realized that’s when I, I knew that. You know, professional selling is very scientific. People look at computer science and AI and whatever. You need a good prompt. Well, the same is true with selling. And the reason people can’t use AI worth of crap is because they’re not good face-to-face.

You know, the computer, you artificial intelligence, they’re still like, kind of, sort of some intelligence there. And so if you can’t engage with a human, you can’t engage with a computer. You know, uh, and conversely, if you can engage with a computer, you know, insofar as can you speak its language, right?

Like what is HTML hypertext, markup language, you know, these are literal languages. And so if you understand the language of persuasion and connection and communication, you can get people to take the actions that you want them to take. And so when I saw that, it was like, oh, hell, man. Okay, now I know what I’m gonna do.

So Wes, I’m, I’m hearing three things here. Um, one is that sales has been a common theme for you all along from jobs to your own businesses, to what you, the sword you sharpen, right? For yourself. Two, uh, you have excellent timing with the tech industry, right? Good grief. And three is this, this consistent investment in self, right?

That you take the courses you seek to learn, you go to the physical library and learn things earlier on. Uh, and that’s where a lot of growth came, came from. So that’s that’s fantastic. Yeah. You gotta invest in yourself always. So when you do this long enough, as you and I have been doing, you know, plateaus aren’t something that you avoid per se, right?

Like they, they’re coming, you know, they’re there. Um, we expect them and you’ve hid. A few of these plateaus along the way. What, what would you say is like one of the biggest plateaus that you know, you feel your business experienced over the years? You and I met probably not long after I started working with Infusionsoft and I was, I expanded my offerings, just helping clients with a lot of their digital marketing needs, right?

Helping ’em with their website and membership sites and all these things, as well as their marketing automation. But dude, early on I cared more about my client’s success than they did quite often. So I would take on too much, you know, and literally, you know, wake up at 4:00 AM worried, get in, start doing stuff, staying up till midnight, grinding away.

And there’s an old adage that like surgeons don’t operate on friends and family, right? They can’t be neutral. Uh, my wife and I, we just watched this series, the Pit. Have you heard of that? I think it’s on HBO. Yeah, I’ve seen the preview for it. Yeah. They’re like, er docs in, uh, in Pittsburgh, you know, and it’s just, it’s intense man.

It’s grueling and, you know, and the lead guy, like, he’s really good. And then, you know, uh, a friend comes in and he overdoes it and blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, and, and you can see everybody else was like, you gotta let it go, man. You know, it’s hard to be, uh, that neutral detached third party, but that’s what you need in, in whatever you’re dealing with in life.

So you get a straight shot, you get the, an honest perspective. Right. But I would, I would dig in and, and so, and it sounds harsh, but it’s reality. Like I had to learn to create barriers, uh, with my customers and, you know, really set clear expectations. Um, and it’s hard because. Especially dealing with small business owners, you know, it’s their baby and nobody wants to take responsibility.

You know, it’s always your fault. Right? That web guy, that marketing guy, that coach that consultant, yeah. It was never your fault, you know? Uh, so that. That doing that almost brought me down twice over the years. Um, how so? I would overdeliver, I would, you know, let people scope creep, come in, you know, offer to do something for a couple grand and do 10 grand worth of work for ’em, you know, instead of two grand for two weeks.

You know, I’d do, I do take two grand for 12 weeks, you know, and like, ’cause I’m just trying to make it right. Trying to help ’em, and, and it’s like, you gotta give ’em some tough love, you know, and say, here’s what you get. Uh, you get what you get and you don’t throw a fit. So, um, I’ve got kids talking about that.

Feel like I told that to my kids before. Why is advice Wes? So what was that like? You know, you’re going to bed past midnight, waking up at four, worrying about everyone else’s business, overdelivering, but, you know, not, not making enough. What, what does that mean? Your business? It, everything sucked, right?

Because now you’re tired, you’re not present with your family, uh, you’re not present physically, uh, you’re not present mentally, right? You’re not doing your best work. Uh, and you’re just in this constant state of worry and, um, you know, eventually something’s gotta give. Um, so, you know, you, you start working it out and, um, grinding it out really.

But, you know, again, I’m stubborn and, um, I figured it out, but it was, it was a school of hard knocks. Was it just a matter of, you know, hustle, more smile and dial more sleazy or sales tactics? Like No, it was, um, it’s not sleazy. Sales tactics don’t work. Right. So it’s just setting clear expectations. It’s understanding the value that you bring.

Um, and honestly, it’s all the stuff I teach, it was just hard for me to do it for myself, you know, because I just, I was always, and still it’s an issue with me, like I never. I never want somebody to say something bad about me, like, go online. Oh, she cheated me. You know, overcharged me or whatever. Like, I don’t have any of those reviews.

Right. But sometimes it’s like, just take it, you know, they’re a wimp. It’s like this, this, this image goes around every now and then. It’s like a frame in front of a restaurant, you know, with the chalk. Come in and have, you know, the worst sandwich that Jeremy s has ever had. You know, they gave him like a one star Yelp review, so they’re like, they just owned it, right?

And I’m like, okay, that dude was having a bad day. Um, and so you just, you gotta give some tough love, you know? ’cause the real reality is if you don’t charge enough, uh, you can’t deliver the service that your customers need, want, and expect, and that you need to deliver to stay in business. You can’t just be scraping by.

So I wanna dig into that a little more. Wes, you know, were you focused on growth sales at the time or you know, were you looking at profit when you’re doing that 10 k work for 2K? You know, when did the shift happen from, from billing out what you’re worth and and boxing in the deliverables? A few things happened.

Uh, some consciously, some unconsciously. Yeah. I just made a post last week. It’s like, I’ve always been terrible at goal setting, but I’m great at anti goal setting. I am like, I don’t like doing that, so how can I stop doing that? You know? So doing a lot of hands on client work. I didn’t like, uh, and so like selling Infusionsoft, you know, I, I was great at selling it.

I was great at teaching it. I was not great at being on call, being on a retainer and maintaining it for you, you know? So I just got graded sales and uh, just ratcheted up sales. Built a small team of consultants that I would. Outsource the onboarding too. So I would do the sale, they would do the onboarding.

Uh, I would usually hop in on the first call to kind of handle the transition. And then I did a weekly call, kinda like office hours, you see a lot of people doing now. But it was basically office hours to just take questions because again, I was good at, at teaching, um, and I liked teaching. I like helping people.

Uh, but kind of like being an ER doc, right? Like if I was a doc, I’d probably be an ER doc, like put me in the mix. You know, whatever is going on, I’ll handle it. But then at the end of the day, I need to walk away, you know, I don’t wanna bring this stuff home with me. And so doing that kind of training and helping people, like in the moment, ’cause they’ll come in, they’re stuck on something and, and I, this, this, the way my brain works.

Just that kind of rapid fire. Give ’em some ideas, map out a few options, say, all right, you good. Can you handle that? Yes. And they’d be off and running. Because a lot of times in business, you know, I equate it to lifting weights. When you have a spotter, like a good spotter is not lifting the weight for you.

You know, you’re lifting till exhaustion, right? And so at the end you’re getting your 8, 9, 10 reps in, you know, a good spotter. They’re giving, you know, five pounds of lift. You know, you got 200 pounds on the bar. And so you don’t need them to lift 200 pounds. If they’re good, they keep you moving. One pound, two pounds, five pounds of help you get through the sticking point, and then you don’t need ’em anymore.

Right? And that’s how most of us are in life, right? We don’t need this advisor to do everything. We just need to, to, to be that spotter. And so that’s what I did, right? I just focused on selling new accounts, helping people, uh, in a limited manner, right? Hey, hit me up, you know, here comes the call each week.

Be ready. I’ll make myself available. And, um, you know, and that worked great. So Wes, what I’m hearing, just to recap for our listeners, is that, um, you looked at, instead of trying to do everything as many small business owners try and do, uh, you looked at what you were good at, right? The sales side of things, looked at what you didn’t enjoy doing, which was all the hands-on worrying and implementation work, and you brought in others to fulfill that.

So you could still offer that deliverable, but it wasn’t dependent on you to be doing. Yep. That was it. Love it. So. You’ve been in this game a while, and, uh, you’ve mentioned in our conversations, uh, you know, about your business Growth playbook, uh, and about, you know, your journey as a business owner that you’ve used probably all the strategies from the book to get unstuck, which is the idea.

Right? You know, the reason I created the playbook was so readers can choose the strategies they want to use now, but choosing what to implement first can always be challenging. How did you decide, you know, where to focus your energies on to get unstuck first? Since you can’t do everything at once, Perry Marshall talks about the bleeding neck, right?

So you, you gotta triage. You triage, you know, well like that, that move, that show the pit, right? You got a bunch of people coming in, you triage, you know who gets treated first, and then out of all their injuries, which one gets treated first. You know, you got this nasty broken leg because it looks terrible, but their neck is bleeding.

Let’s stop the bleeding neck. You know? So you’ve gotta figure out. Well, you don’t even have to figure it out, right? Because pain, pain is a universal truth. So if you’re in pain, you’re going to address the pain and, um, or it’ll kill you, you know? And, and I, and again, in my own teaching, um, in training, it’s like, uh, I remind people that it’s easier to sell an aspirin than a vitamin, right?

So whatever the biggest pain is, go there. And, and sometimes you don’t have a choice. It’s just staring you in the face and you gotta do it. Uh, sometimes like the pain is just unbearable. And so you just gotta, you gotta address it. You gotta stop doing it, you know, which helps take the pain away or whatever.

And so, and again, through the years, it’s um, you know, I would spread myself too thin because I would make good money. Then I’d go somewhere else. I, you know, I brought on partners. I invested in an apartment complex and we ended up getting audited by the IRS ’cause I trusted a dude. I bought into a franchise.

I had no business being a franchise. They messed it up, got sued again this time by the California Board of Equalization, you know, so it’s just like every time I got in trouble, it’s because I thought someone was smarter than me, knew something I didn’t, had some secret, you know, and it’s like, no, they don’t, um, invest in yourself.

Right? So I just, once I just started planning money back into myself. You know, uh, things got better. Things got consistently better. Um, so, you know, just find the bleeding neck, stop that, then work down. Yeah. So looking back, you know, um, what did you feel were some of those bleeding necks earlier on, that you either.

Stemmed in the business. Right. You know, got, got some, uh, some clotting going. Um, and what were the, you know, the opportunities, like the low hanging fruit we’d say that you wanted to pursue first to, to really get, get you back to a growth? I don’t go to as many things now, but back in the day. Well, hell, I found Infusionsoft because I went to a conference, you know, I went to meet Dan Kennedy and, uh, so, and actually the, the guy that taught the 12 week class in oh six.

Had become a Dan Kennedy licensee, so he got me turned on to Dan. So two, so two years later I meet Dan Kennedy, but then I’m exposed to Infusionsoft. Then I, you know, I invested Infusionsoft, which was for me, and it was, I bit off more than I could chew. I didn’t need, or I didn’t have a website when I bought Infusionsoft, right?

2008. And so, and I entered their partner program ’cause I saw the potential for residual income. I saw the, and that, that’s why I became a financial advisor back in the day. But I had such a bad experience, it just turned me off to it. But from the beginning, I, I understood the concept of passive income, you know, stockbroker and, you know, we could sell annuities and life insurance, you know, sell it once, get paid over and over again.

So, working with software, with sas. Um, gave me that opportunity, gave me the ability to create that residual income. IM remember my wife saying, so you get 20% of a $299 sale, so like $59 and 50 cents for it. She’s like, whoopee. She legit was like, not impressed. Then I sold, you know, a few hundred and those keep coming in and then plus the set of fees plus additional consulting.

She’s like, yeah, keep selling that $60 tool, you know. Nice. So tell us more about the residual income side. So, uh, you know, you tried that, um, with, uh, managing, you know, brokerage accounts. You tried that with apartments, right? You tried that with some other things and you found, you found the, the magic in SaaS.

So, uh, tell us how you built up residual income for the business and, and what that’s done for you. Well, like Steve had taught me, you know, you gotta be a product of the product. Mm-hmm. Uh, Zig Ziglar talks about that, you know, you gotta, you gotta be, become your first customer. You gotta be your best customer.

Right. So I, I got this for myself and I used it, and then I saw, you know, it’s like, oh, I can tell people what I’m doing. They clicked that link and I get paid, you know, if they buy. So that was just a no brainer. Right. I was just legit. Excited about the software, and I just made tutorials. I made videos, I made blog posts, sent emails, and it’s just like, you gotta use this stuff, you know?

And to get paid for just telling the truth, right? It’s like, okay, this is cool. And then the fact that it was residual, right? It wasn’t like a one time affiliate fee, it was recurring commission. It was 20%, then they created tier I was platinum plus whatever it was, 30%. You know, so when you have a couple hundred accounts, you know, 300, 400 accounts, you know, 2 99, 3 99, 600 a month, whatever, and you’re getting 30% of that, whether you get out of bed or not, it’s like, that’s exciting, you know?

Um, and then I created my own tools, right? Again, I was a product of the product. I would promote the stuff. Had a web form, then drip into a, a, a, you know, a, a drip sequence, a nurture sequence. So now the emails are running 24 7 affiliate links to both Infusionsoft, but then other tools. You know, back then it was lead pages or blue hosting, or web hosting.

So all these complimentary things, right? So I figured out what does my customer need? Am I selling them? Or it’s like, you know, a realtor, you know, you’re, you’re moving in. It’s like, do you need help with a mover? Do you, are you gonna do some landscaping? Are you gonna build a pool? You know, do you want the house painted?

Do you want new flooring before you get, you want a referral to an interior designer? Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. So, I mean, I just, so many people, like, I don’t wanna be pushy, whatever, like, it’s not pushy, you know, figure out if they trust you. I don’t know, with your optometry, you know, get ’em some glasses they may wanna refer.

Like, look at, I got seven kids. We’ve used orthodontists, we’ve used pediatricians, we’ve used chiropractors. You know, like, so if I, I enter the world, you know, of, of health and wellness through my optometrists, then refer me others, you know, in the field that’s not pushy, that’s helpful, that’s wise. You become that broker of knowledge, of resources, of, of introductions, of community, you become this trusted source.

You know? And so now when you recommend better glasses or, and contacts or you know, they, they almost feel like they owe you. Uh, so that’s what I did. Earlier on, uh, one of the questions I asked you, I sort of teased you with the idea of was, was it sleazy or sales? Because I know that’s, that’s one thing you often, um, very much anti position with, right?

Um, brilliantly. So I should add, so a concept you and I have talked about, uh, over the years, a lot now, I cover in the book a bit, is this idea of if you’re providing value right then that’s worth something and you have an exchange in value, right? And you, and you know that value is clear. To your prospect, to your customer when they’re willing to pay for that.

Right? Not because they were tricked into it, but because they saw the value in what you were offering. Every buying decision you and I make every day as a consumer is because we see value in the thing that we’re buying. Right. So, um, I love that you’ve, you’ve, you’ve touched on that again, with this idea of, um, even referrals, right?

Or offering something for sale. It’s just a matter of, you know, having opportunity to provide value, you know? I’ve got affiliate links all over, you know, wearing this nimble shirt. Right. And I, I know the founder of Nimble. Uh, it’s a good CRM. It’s smaller, lightweight. It’s not for everybody, but, you know, HubSpot’s not for everybody.

Keap is not for everybody. So it’s like, what do you need? Yeah. You know, I’m not just gonna sell you, you know, a an a an F three 50, you know, diesel duly. Maybe you need a Prius. Okay. As long as you buy from me, we’re good. You know? Yep. So. Wes, you’ve mentioned to me before that sometimes, um, when you get stuck, it comes down to just digging in and focusing on what needs to get done until it’s done.

And in business, look, we’ve, we’ve all got, you know, things that need to get done whether we want to or not. You know, taking care of the taxes, you know, one of the items you mentioned earlier, right? Um, some things just need to get done, right. Uh, some things might be outside your wheelhouse versus the stuff you love doing.

Some move the business forward, some don’t. How, you know, how do you figure out? Where to focus your energy and what to just get to done so you can move on to the next thing. Yeah, and there’s two schools of thought, right? Some say, you know, turn your greatest weakness into your strength. Like, okay, maybe, you know, and sometimes you have to do that, but like, I’ve never done payroll, you know, I don’t do my taxes.

Fortunately my wife is, has a business degree and is very detail oriented, so she’s been able to help. Uh, but even that, we pay someone to do payroll. And they send us the payroll. And, um, not everything needs to be done by you. You know, years ago in Infusionsoft, when they were still in the old, in the original Gilbert building, you know, they’d hired me to help with some rioting.

And I came up with the slogan, automate, integrate, dominate, you know, and I’ve always said, look at what you do two or three times a day, or four or five times a week, and have a process for it at a, at a minimum, and automate it if you can. You know, so you gotta figure out. What needs to be done and doesn’t need to be done by you.

But I tell everybody that as a business owner, your number one job is to market yourself. And so that doesn’t mean you’re the one creating the ad campaigns and and pasting the Facebook pixel on your websites, but you need to understand all of that. Be conversant in it mainly so people don’t lie to you and rip you off.

And that’s the unfortunate truth. Okay, so, but. So you, you gotta dig down and make sure you’re at least conversant in everything. You know, like, what’s the old adage? You know what, whatever you like, your greatest opportunity or whatever is like behind the door or behind the thing you fear most. Right? It’s like hiding from something never makes it better.

You know, in juujitsu I always talk about, it’s like, uh, it’s like golf. It’s like anything. You’re never perfect. Like, you’re hitting great off the tee, you know, now you can’t put you knee down your putting now you can’t get outta sand trap. You get outta sand traps and you know, now you, you can’t fade the ball.

So it’s always something you gotta work on. And so the same thing with Juujitsu. I tell guys, you know, they’re like, I’m bad at this. Like, then only do that for like two months. Like what? Like start every sparring session with, get in that bad position and work your way out of it. You do that every time for two months.

You’ll get good at it. Because you know, in Jiujitsu you don’t have a choice, right? That’s your fight. It’s, it’s you versus the other guy. So the less, the fewer weaknesses you have, the better off. But then others will still say, well, if you’re really so good at one thing, you okay? True. But I mean, these are guys that are learning, you know?

So it’s like get competent in everything and then figure out where you can get great and then you know, fine. But until then, master do everything you can to master each aspect of the game, you know? So. It’s, it is funny. One of my mentors talks about this, uh, he, he has a great framing that I love is he says, I get to wake up each morning and play this great game of business.

And there’s a, there’s a really key word in there, right? Uh, or two. It’s, it’s playing this game of business. It’s like, you don’t win, you don’t learn at all. You’re not done right? With each new level of success. There’s, you know, you unlock new doors. You didn’t know were there with new challenges. So it’s not about not having those challenges, it’s about seeing those new weaknesses and, you know, and, and moving forward despite that.

So, um, you know, like, like you do every day, right? You, you bring it right back out to the mat. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not because you win every single session. You learn every single session. You do learn and that, and that’s why most people don’t do it. I mean, it’s humbling, you know, you jujitsu, it’s, it’s a humbling sport and, uh, but business is humbling.

You know, all these guys get hit in the teeth. You know, Warren Buffet gets kicked. Elon Musk, my, uh, mark Cuban. I mean, they all, not everything goes perfectly, obviously. You get so big, you know, those losses, you know, you don’t necessarily feel as bad. But, uh, they’ve taken their shots, you know, and, um, they still show up.

Most people, you know, like Mike Tyson says, everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face. Right. You know? So most people have never been hit in the face. Oh, I have been. It’s not fun. Yeah. I, I was, uh, one of my earlier matches in the ring, um, no joke. Straight out of like, you know, a movie. The guy I’m with, you know, throws one glove up in the air, I look up and so never made that mistake again.

Mm-hmm. There you go. Never fought that glove again. Okay. You learn quick. Right. So when you’re implementing and putting in the residual income, you know, into the business through, you know, being, uh, being a referral partner and affiliate with different SaaS platforms, uh, I know that first one, you know, your wife looked at you like, you’re like crazy, a little skeptical and all.

Um, beyond that, like what were some of the other challenges that you faced in, you know, building up the residual income part of the business? Well, when you’re getting started. You know, I learned this from Dan Kennedy, but it’s so true. He is like, I don’t know how to get you 30 leads. You know? He says, but I know 30 ways to get you one.

You know? So early on, um, I was cold calling and inviting people to a workshop I’d put on every three weeks. Um, and then, you know, I was still creating content. I was making tutorials and throwing them on YouTube. I was writing emails. I’d go to conferences, I’d get a booth, um, you know, sponsored chamber commerce function.

So just doing everything that I could. Right. And just, just tirelessly, uh, hitting all of those. ’cause you know, back then social media wasn’t what it is now. So you didn’t, and like I said, early on, I didn’t have even have a website and, uh, didn’t have a merchant account. You know, I would, I would do these events and have people bring me a check, you know, to the workshop.

Um, and I would print, I would print these like one third size flyers and one third, so the reduced cost. And I had a local printer, and then I would print ’em and have ’em cut ’em, you know, ’cause you didn’t need a whole flyer. I just needed the, so just the info. So I’d go to these Chamber of Commerce functions, handing things out, you know, so it was, it was like, kiss a bunch of frogs, you know, figure out what works, you know, and, um.

Figure out what doesn’t stop doing what doesn’t, and double down on what does, um, then rinse, wash, and repeat. You know, there was no magic. So, Wes, I wanna dig into that iterative process a little more. Um, you know, one of the things you and I both love doing is looking at funnels, right? And testing and implementing, and then seeing what’s wor, what works.

Uh, and I think there’s, there’s a few things that we both see with business owners that are sort of common. Uh, mindsets, right? One is this, uh, this false idea that there’s a silver bullet. There’s one lead source that when you crack that code, forget everything else. That’s where all the business is coming from versus like what you said, 30 ways to get the one lead, right?

And then the second is this idea that, uh, once you figured it out, you’re done. And, and you know, the markers aren’t gonna move, the goalposts aren’t gonna get moved. Dammit. I used a football reference. I promised I wouldn’t. Right. But that, you know, the, the goalposts are gonna, are gonna move on you. Right.

So you’re a funnel guy. How do you look at your funnels and measure, like what’s working, what’s not, uh, what to stop doing, what to do more of, like, what’s your process like? I have greatly simplified my process over the years. Um, but over the years it was, it was a lot more complex. And, you know, with digital marketing, it’s a lot clearer.

I think it was John Wanamaker, he had, um, I think it was Woolworth back in the day, you know, he said, I know that 50% of my marketing is wasted, I just don’t know which 50%. You know. So it’s a lot clearer now. You know, you can see who’s clicking and where. Um, but it’s still kind of tough. Um, have you heard of Alex Becker?

Hmm. He’s super successfully, his, his software hero, Hiro, H-Y-R-O-S. And it does digital attribution, um, because sometimes it is hard to track. Well, just like with Infusionsoft, right? Like do you give the sale to whoever clicked the link first or last? Yeah. You know, and the argument can be made for both.

And so, because it, maybe I saw your ad somewhere else. But I didn’t click it. But then I, you know, I see it on Reddit or wherever. Now I’m on Facebook, and then later on I follow you on Instagram and I click there. Well, I mean, so figuring out the attribution is important. Uh, and I think a lot of people still don’t get it.

Right. But, but my point is, you can, we can put too much emphasis on, on the digital, on the, on the ones and the zeros. And forget the subjective, you know, I always say we must deliver a powerful message in a powerful manner. You know, we don’t want to convince a hundred, a hundred people, 10% of the way. I wanna convert, I want 10 people converted, you know, convinced a hundred percent of the way.

So are you remembering that there’s a human being on the other end of the street? So. As you start building content. ’cause here’s, here’s the real risk. You know, 15 years ago, 18 years ago, everyone was hiring VAs, your VA was creating your content and posting it. My VA was liking it or deleting it, you know, so who really won?

Right? The VAs, well now it’s ai. Uh, I get all these messages. Would you like, I’ll make 30 days of social media posts for you for free. Will you only give it a try? It’s like, bruh, I got the same tools, you know? And so are you making stuff that’s persuasive or just noisy? Uh, so as you try to figure out what is working today, you’re going to be tempted to use AI tools.

And I love these AI tools. Just like I love marketing automation tools. You still have to put some humanity into the process, right? I, I still write, you know, physical notes and mail them to people, and I’m telling you what, that has 1000 times more effect than anything else. Uh, nobody does that anymore, so.

Everybody says, I, I zig when the market zags. I, I’m outside. I don’t think outside the box. There’s not even a box around me. And then here they are doing the exact thing. Everybody else is doing. Same. As, same. Say, I gotta have a Instagram carousel, I gotta have, can I make a 10 real image carousel? How’s that working out for you?

I love that you picked up those letters, Wes? Uh, one of the strategies that I talk about in the book is direct mail, right? And it’s, I don’t wanna say what’s old is new, but like it never stopped working. And yet so many business owners pass it by. Right. Looking at the cost, looking at not knowing how to do it.

Uh, even though it still does work, and the businesses that do it every day are doing it for a reason. It works. Yeah. Nobody wants to dabble. So like, my cousin just hired me, um, and he’s, he’s an introvert, he’s an ops guy, and so I’m giving him some ideas. And so I don’t wanna tell too much, but the first one he called with my recommendation, did what I recommended, and then the second one did.

So those are both on Friday and then this morning I’m like, go get some video testimonials. Okay, Matt, look, we can get one this week. He texted me this morning. Asked for one. Got one. I’m like, so alright, you already got one. So there’s your whole wheel. Like, okay, go get 10. Yep. You know? I’m like, come one, come on man.

He’s got like 440 happy customers local to his city. I’m like, Bru. So it’s like, you gotta branch out because I’m giving him all these ideas and it’s just, it’s stretching his brain. He’s like, I’m so uncomfortable with this. I’m like, dude, you’ve been doing what you’ve been comfortable with. How has that worked out?

You know, you’re not coming to me for me to tell you to keep doing what you’ve already been doing. Keep your money. Right. If that’s what’s happening, you’re coming to me to give you some idea, and again, I’m giving you 30 ideas to get one customer, you know, 30, 30 different ways to get one customer. And then now, yes.

Now you’ll figure out. Let’s have a combination of effective and comfort. Like, I don’t want you totally freaking out all day, every day for the rest of your life, right? But as you do new things, you get more comfortable. Right? And Zig Ziglar talks about that. Like he, he had a woman that was his assistant.

He was kind of like a, a pampered chef salesman back in the day, right? He was, he was selling cookware. Uh, and so this woman would help, so they would literally cook in your home. So you’d invite all your friends. She would help set up, she would help clean up while he’s fit doing the clothes. And, and she says, I’ll do that.

Never, don’t ever make me sell anything. And something happened. He got like double booked and he was like, I’m sorry. She’s like, I would quit on you right now. I can’t believe you made me do. I will do it, but if you ever do this again, I will quit. I blah, blah, blah. He’s like so nervous. And he, he calls her at the end of the night, how’d it go?

He’s like, you couldn’t shut her up. This was fantastic. Everybody bought and then she went on to become like the VP of sales, like for the whole company and then like this industry leader ’cause she branched out. Yeah. Right. So much growth. Yeah. Happens outside the company. My cousin was a Marine. He can like, dude, why are you’re afraid of talking to a customer who loves what you do?

Come on man. He know. He’s nervous to give a talk. So like I’m like. I’ll help you write the talk like he’s a member of Rotary. Like, go give a 10 minute talk on, on business and leadership. Right? Like, I’m, I’m not telling you to sell anybody. Just become visible. Become this, this beacon of the community where he has lived his entire life, you know?

And his family business is 20, 28 years old. His dad started, he’s running. I’m like, just be pleasant. Be visible. Be present. I’m like, yeah, they’ll refer business to you. So like he’s getting there. But Brandon, we’ve been doing this for like not even two weeks, so he’s getting there. Nice. One, one step at a time.

And we sometimes need that nudge from, from outside the circle to, to expand that circle. So Wes, you’ve helped thousands of business owners achieve growth. And I mean, even you’ve yourself have built a business with a substantial amount of residual monthly income. Letting you take care of the kiddos, the grand kiddos, the family, all of it, and I love that.

Can you share, like as you implemented the residual income strategies in the business, how did that help on the gross sales and or on the profit side compared to other stuff you’re doing before? Well, the residual, you know, when you know you’ve got your bills covered, whether you get outta bed or not, it’s empowering, you know.

You know, my dad always says, if you think you’re desperate, you are. Hmm. Okay. So if you’re running around anxious and desperate, it just, it compounds in a negative, this downward spiral. So success begets success, you know, so as those winds start to compound, you know, some people can, can do stupid stuff and waste it.

But, you know, having a wife that has been home for 30 years and seven kids. It’s funny, like I’m money motivated, but it’s like, only because it’s how you keep score, but like, I don’t, I hardly spend any money, you know, my wife does all the books and everything. I’m like, do whatever, you know, I’ll, I’ll buy a new juujitsu.

Gee, you know, I’m going on a trip in a couple weeks back to the academy for a football game. So I’ll do little things, you know, but like, I’m not wasting it. I’m not, so it’s just, but it’s, it’s empowering to know. Do what you want, when you want, uh, within reason, you know, but we’ve always had that rainy day fund.

We’ve always set money aside. You know, we and my wife has said different account. We literally have a summer vacation account. You know, we fill that thing up, she makes the plans, we go, there’s no guilt, there’s no confusion, there’s no doubt. Um, and so, and we build those memories, you know, our kids look forward to it.

Even our married kids, you know, they, they all come out for. You know, so we can’t get enough, uh, enough rooms for everybody and the in-laws and the, but they rotate through, you know, throughout the week. They’ll come for the day. Some will spend the night and others will spend the night. So, but it’s close.

Everybody’s within an hour. Yeah. So that’s easy. But, you know, my oldest graduated high school. I mean, heck, that was 2015. You know, I took all nine of us to Hawaii for, you know, nine days. Uh, so we’ve done some big trips, but it’s, it’s just comforting. It’s reassuring, but you gotta be careful too, like not to get comfortable, you know, because I’ve had tips since then.

And, uh, because things change and Fusionsoft didn’t keep up. They got bought out, they changed their partner program. HubSpot changed their partner program. Boom. There goes 40 grand and recurring income ripped away from me. Um, I stopped selling and leading with Infusionsoft, so those residuals went down.

So it’s like I’ve had to pivot. I’m still pivoting. And so, but you know, I’m doing it from knowledge and experience and connections. Uh, and you know, the things I sell now, you know, December 30th I did a deal, you know, like 180 grand, you know, so I’m just having, I’m having the same discussions, but different, right?

So it’s, and I, and it was actually, we sold HubSpot, right? They, they had outgrown Infusionsoft. And I didn’t try to steer ’em away. They came to me. We looked at everything like they had four Infusionsoft accounts, they had a service, uh, thing, and they had five, six different accounts we were able to put into one.

It’s like, okay, this does make sense for you. So I’m doing the same stuff, just a little bigger scale now. Love it. Um, before we wrap, just a few sort of quick, rapid fire questions for you, um, you know, on some of this. So one, especially with, um, the recurring revenue component of this, churn is a big deal, right?

And no matter what you do, you’ll never eliminate churn, right? But what are some of the strategies that you’ve used to reduce churn and keep those, you know, those recurring revenue customers? Longer so you stay in touch. Right. So have a private group where you can, where you can chat. I’ve got a mobile app.

I engage with people. Uh, I have a regular email that I send out. I have physical mail, you know, when they join, depending on what they buy. You know, I’ve mailed them something physical, they get my book. Uh, I’ve got challenge coin, you know, so I send different things. My, my sales training flashcards. So, you know, physical mail still works, so, so stay in touch.

I’ll connect with them wherever they are on social media, Instagram X, LinkedIn, um, so the more personable and, and present you can be, you know, it helps deepen that relationship and they’ll stay longer. Nice. So based on, you know, your experience, you’ve been at this a while, you know, what’s one piece of advice that you’d give a business owner who feels stuck or like they’re facing a plateau in their business and they just can’t?

Get back to growth. Buy something. Buy, buy your book. Uh, buy an hour with you. Buy an hour with me, you know, join my 12 weeks to peak. I mean, do something. Invest in yourself. You know, stop kissing a bunch of frogs. You know, you don’t need another free report. You don’t need another, you know, 13 step checklist that you’re not gonna read.

Give my 1,001 AI prompts guaranteed to help you master AI bs. You ain’t gonna read it, you’re not gonna do it. You know, and so if you’re stuck, if you’re declining investing in a good coach or advisor, it’s the single biggest thing. That’s what always turned my stuff around. You know, going back early, like 2002, I invested my first time ever paying a coach.

This was a real estate coach, paid him 500 bucks for some guidance, you know, and then by oh six, you know, I invested with Steve Clark for 10 grand. To become, uh, a licensee of his and have unlimited access. I mean the, you know, find somebody that’ll hold your feet to the fire and pay them to push you. I would echo that.

Uh, I, I faced the exact same, um, challenge and found that to be the same solution as well, so, yeah. Cool. Yeah. So. For our listeners to recap, you know, you’ve gotten stuck many times over the years, but each time you broke through by focusing on the one thing that needed to get done and getting it fully implemented.

Um, specifically one of the big strategies is adding on the recurring revenue streams, um, as an affiliate partner. So shifting you from like more outbound sales to more inbound selling funnels and really increasing the customer lifetime value. Yep. So for our listeners who wanna learn more about you, Wes, where should they go?

Like right now, um, the, the sales whisper.com is my home. Um, I’m using Substack now. That’s been a, a pivot for me. Uh, so I’ve got a couple of, uh, channels there. I’m really enjoying and, and, uh, but you can, from there, everything links out all my social media. You can find me, you can just link to my calendar if you wanna talk.

Do a free consultation, uh, if you wanna kick things off. But, um, you can subscribe for free and, uh, kind of see my tone, my approach, see if it resonates with you. If it does and you need some help, you know, reach out. Love it, Wes. Thank you so much and we’ll have all that in the show notes. Uh, but for our folks listening that you can find Wes over@thesaleswhisperer.com.

Wes, thanks so much for joining us. Hey, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.